-Gila Region Community News, Calendar, Forum-

Reader Supported Silver City News & SW New Mexico, Grant County NM, Gila NF
* Login   * Register

* FAQ    * Search

All times are UTC - 7 hours

News     Columns     Food: Growing, Fixing     Features     Water     Health     Business     Education     DIY & How-tos     Classifieds     Forum     Home 

Silver City Food Coop



We Are Reader Supported
Your recurring contribution goes to support the Forum, Calendar, and Email List, which exists to further local, sustainable, place-based community.
MONTHLY RECURRING GIFT
    Bill Me Now For: $

ONE-TIME GIFT
Bill Me Now For: $

You may also mail a check or cash to
Moses Clark
PO Box 1792
Silver City, N.M. 88062


Get your ad here








Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 35 posts ] 
Author ------ Message
 Author: crow
PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2014 7:25 pm 
Image
These are the gas pumps in front of the Office of Sustainability (OoS) on Pope and 11th Streets. As was the plan when the Town bought the old gas station and the land, in early 2012, the town is creating their own gas pumping station (special card required) and will offer the product to the County and GRMC EMS. According to Alex Brown, Town Manager/Finance Director the money saved by the Town in gasoline bills will be equal to the purchase price in 7 to 8 years.

Image
One pump station, 2 fill nozzles (1 on each side) will be the first spot in the photo and all the rest removed to create space for projects and displays of and by the OoS funded by a grant from PNM.

Before the purchase the Town had everything inspected as required and are replacing the gas lines from the tanks to the fill station (I was informed that even though we call them pumps the pumps are actually submerged in the tanks and are being replaced).

Image
When the station was first built the concrete slab between the "pump island" and the OoS office was improperly poured and is being dug up and replaced.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Author: n2ic
PostPosted: Thu Oct 02, 2014 6:02 pm 
Who has the sense of humor that colocated the Office of Sustainability and the town gas pumps ?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Author: frankie26
PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 6:56 am 
Who cares? I don't! It didn't seem to be a problem when they were there before. The way i see it, it ought to be good enough to house the 1-3 people who only work there part-time. Big deal!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Author: crow
PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 8:59 am 
Ironic indeed. Regularly I see the electric pick-up that the employees use plugged into an outlet near the corner of Pope and 11th and hope the gas pumps being where they are don't disrupt that. I don't understand frankie26's comment but having an OoS is a big deal not only for the huge dollar savings they have brought the Town but also the improvements in the working conditions in the Town offices with better lighting etc. and the solar arrays at the Water Treatment Plant and Visitor Center and the plastic bag ordinance to name but a few. There are a number of projects in the pipeline which I'll be covering as they get more developed.

The Town currently pays for gasoline to the tune of about $6,200.00 per week ($330,000.00 per year), it varies from week to week and any savings to the Town (us) will be welcome.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Author: almilligan
PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 7:11 am 
Here's another view point on this project. This will remove $330,000 a year, more if other agencies sign up, from the local private economy. Every few months there is a program to buy local to keep the local economy humming, now the town is going to buy gas from some out of town wholesaler.

In my experience, governments are so inefficient that the savings advertised rarely materialize.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Author: gorwest
PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 1:11 pm 
Your point about buying local needs more analysis for this scenario, Al.

Most of the money expended by us locals on fuel leaves the area immediately. It would only be the markup by the gas station that would be considered buying local. The Town may be planning to buy bulk from a local distributor, I don't know.

The important parts to calculate would be: to compare the savings to the Town (that would be all of us) to the loss to the gas stations that currently supply fuel to the Town; to estimate the savings (theoretical) from reduced accounting related to fuel purchases; and, if TOSC gasser-uppers currently use credit cards, we would want to factor in the savings on transaction fees.

I have often heard, but never seen the numbers to support it, that gas stations don't make much on fuel sales. It may be that they won't care that much if they lose TOSC business? (I never really believed that to be the case, though the info I heard came from a gas station owner).


Top
 Profile  
 
 Author: frankie26
PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2014 2:21 pm 
I'm not suggesting that OoS work is not a big deal, I was commenting on post that it was funny to see that office with station pumps located up front. I was saying no big deal or rather that I don't see that issue as a big deal! Hope I didn't mislead anyone with my previous post.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Author: almilligan
PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2014 12:14 pm 
People complain about the Federal Government getting bigger and bigger, but they don’t notice that our state and local government are increasing at an even greater rate. It seems like local government keeps providing services that are or should be provided by the private sector.

Government, by its nature, is inefficient. What seems like a good money saving idea at start becomes more expensive as government operates it.

I know there are some services that need to be provided by government, but there are , also, some that government should leave to the private sector.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Author: gorwest
PostPosted: Thu Oct 09, 2014 3:33 pm 
When you get done here, Al, I've got a barn that needs painting. ;-)

Since you got me in the mood, too, I say let's fix that big and inefficient government by shrinking it until it's small enough to drown in the bathtub!

Then we can enjoy the efficiency of the unregulated Big Boys as they skin us to the eyeballs.

(Note: the problem isn't big business or big government, it's human nature - fighting with each other all the time instead of listening, substituting opinions for facts, etc.)

Now, about the TOSC gas station, somebody must have run some numbers on it; I'd be interested to see what they indicated (but I'm not interested enough to do the research). I agree that it is good to look at real data to understand the whole cloth of the economic effects - I don't agree with jumping to unsubstantiated conclusions.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Author: almilligan
PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2014 9:04 am 
If I understand your post, you feel that we need big government to protest the common person from the dangers of the capitalistic system. Seems I heard of this political-economic theory before.

I’m getting kind of old and my memory isn’t what it used to be, but, I think I remember spending a big chunk of my adult life training for a war with people that held that same political-economic theory.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Author: gorwest
PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2014 1:53 pm 
There's that 12" brush again!

All I am interested in regarding this thread is that conclusions about the TOSC owning its own gas station should be supported by facts and numbers. I don't think that makes me a socialist or a capitalist, it makes me someone who wants to understand the situation before taking a position.

The other stuff about government always being inefficient, therefore ... what? Does that lead to a conclusion that private business is always better? What would Big Business do if it was not regulated? Can we broad brush this with those sorts of assumptions?

I'd rather base the goodness or badness of the TOSC gas pumps on the numbers. Like I said earlier, I'm curious about it, but not enough to cause me to investigate. I'm glad you brought up the issue about whether it will have a positive or negative economic benefit, because we need to think that way more often. I was just trying to put the brakes on jumping to conclusions without any data.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Author: crow
PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:46 pm 
When the Town bought the gas station there was concern about paying the price so in my article I gave the estimated time it would take in gas savings to pay off the price. The Town had planned this from the beginning, but ultimately the plan is much grander. For many years the Town has owned all of the rest of the block, the parking lot across from Gough Park and the bank drive through, then in one of the Grand Plans for Downtown it was written of the desire to consolidate Town offices/departments in a modern government complex to be located on that block. So after waiting a few years for the price to come down (which it did by about $75,000) the property was in foreclosure and the Town made its move with the foreclosing banks' approval and may have been a short sale though my article at the time is no longer to be found. As far as real estate goes it was a great deal.

The Town already owned the 1/2 (or more) and the building called The Town Annex which rents to Washing Federal Bank and the land and building that is the Cop Shop and Fire Station 1. looking into my Crystal Ball at the misty future the Town either builds its' Civic Center or sells the property or, after the buildings fall over it all become open space or park or .... damn, this Crystal Ball seems to be on the blink...

The thing is Al, Towns and Cities are collectives of the people who live in them and we, as a group, own our infrastructure. We elect from among ourselves those who will oversee the management of these collective assets, from water to streets to open spaces and parks and they hire the boss/manager who oversees the crews that will maintain our infrastructure for us as we engage in the capitalist overlay trying to pay for it all. I would much rather own the building that houses our managers and services than pay a corporate owner rent or pay a corporation to own and deliver our water or those corporations to own our streets, all for profits that leave our community. This intricate interplay between capitalism and collectivism is something that I've not seen taught in the university academic world and is a reason our schools need to be protected from more corporate/capitalist control.

It is unfortunate that 2 great nations (people) were nearly destroyed, but taken to bankruptcy, for a lie that two ideologies should be in mortal combat to the point of destroying the word when in reality the best of both needed to be integrated. But the world wide corporate/military/industrial complex needed the money to solidify their position and, to this day they command the lion-share of all the resources in the word and we gladly continue to give our money and lives.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Author: digitalwiz
PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2014 11:13 pm 
There are things that the so-called "free enterprise" system does well and other things that it doesn't do well. I put "free enterprise" in quotes because in reality it's heavily subsidized by the very "government" you're so quick to criticize, Al. Free enterprise is very good at allocating things like breakfast cereal, cell phones, and luxury cars. But it's not very good at allocating essential public services. I don't hear any Tea Baggers objecting to "socialized" fire protection, "socialized" law enforcement, or even "socialized" roads.

The most important conversation this country needs to have concerns what free enterprise does well versus what the community does well. And I use the term community as a stand-in for "government" because the latter has taken on a pejorative context owing to the tea party and republicans. "Government" has come to mean top-down authoritative control by mindless bureaucrats. What I mean by "community" is people coming together and figuring out what needs to be done to solve common problems. "Free enterprise" doesn't solve common problems, it makes money.

To put this in perspective, every other industrialized nation on the planet, and many third world countries as well, have adopted a government run, single payer health care plan that assures every citizen adequate health care at a reasonable cost. We don't do that because we have a slew of corporations making a great deal of money selling

We're unlikely to have this conversation, at least at a national level, because our corporate overlords are terrified of people who actually think. Fox Noise and the other corporate media will make sure any such discussion goes unreported. So it's up to us at the local level to bring this issue to the forefront.

I would have ended this missive here except my wife asked me what I was doing and when I explained it, she reminded me of Upton Sinclair's "The Jungle". If you're happy eating poisend meat, breathing poisend air and drinking poisend water, then you can ignore everything government has done in the last century to protect public health. And the impetus didn't come from bureaucrats, it came from people.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Author: alan wagman
PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 10:28 am 
Railroads were built and became rich because the government gave them free land. Railroads were destroyed and the auto industry build because the government gave them free roads. The steel industry was built because the government gave them protective tariffs. The oil industry was built because the government gave them ridiculous tax breaks. The nuclear power industry was built because the government gave them ridiculous immunity from lawsuits. The pharmaceutical industry was built because the government has given excessive patent protection, allowing ridiculous profits. The agricultural industry has thrived because the government has provided regulation to assure people that the food is safe (i.e., the other side of the lesson from "The Jungle"). The health insurance industry was built because the government provided tax breaks for premiums. The housing industry was built because the government provided tax breaks for mortgages. The financial industry was built because government stopped regulating it -- and nearly destroyed us for exactly the same reason. It may yet destroy us -- the unregulated manipulation of capital and finance has given this country the income and wealth distribution of a third-world banana republic.

I am sick unto death of reality deniers who claim that private enterprise in this country ever created anything without a government subsidy. I am sick unto death of ideologues who cannot distinguish between social justice and communism.

AW


Top
 Profile  
 
 Author: Ski
PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 7:28 pm 
Amen, Alan.

And, as reported by Community Wealth.org, this past July the small city of Somerset, Kentucky drew national attention when it opened a municipally-owned and -operated fuel center in an effort to drive down gas prices for local residents. As a result of its proximity to Lake Cumberland, a popular tourist destination, the city of 11,000 residents has long struggled with high fuel prices—especially during the summer months between Memorial Day and Labor Day. Under the leadership of Republican Mayor Eddie Girdler, the conservative-leaning city purchased a fuel storage facility for $200,000 and spent $75,000 building the infrastructure to distribute gasoline to the public—including the installation of 10 pumps. The city now purchases gas from a local supplier (Continental Refining Company) and uses city employees who rotate in from other departments to operate the station.

In a city where gas prices at private stations can spike 20 to 30 cents a gallon on weekends, the public station will not aim to turn a profit. Rather the mayor’s office intends to set prices in a way that the city breaks even on the cost of fuel plus operating expenses. However, an additional goal is to provide an incentive for motorists on their way to Lake Cumberland to stop in Somerset to refuel, thus generating additional business for—and greater tax revenues from—the city’s restaurants, shops, and other small businesses.

Gas station owners and their regional and national associations (such as the Kentucky Petroleum Marketers Association, the Petroleum Marketers Association of America, and the Kentucky Grocers Association and Kentucky Association of Convenience Stores) have cried socialism and denounced the city effort as an attempt to “interfere with the free market.” However, lower gas prices are proving very popular with local residents, and Mayor Girdler is showing no signs of backing down. “If government doesn't do it to protect the public, then who does it?” he told reporters. “It's the role of government to protect us from big business.”

Amen to that, too.

_________________
Nothing will be well until we learn to live in harmony with the power of the world as it lives and moves and does its work. -~Black Elk, Oglala Lakota Medicine Man, 1863–1950.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Author: gorwest
PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 8:02 pm 
In a free market economy (not that we have that), what would be the issue with a local government participating in the supply of goods and services?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Author: alan wagman
PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 6:37 am 
I think the objection to government participation in a free market economy is that government would be too large an actor and would monopolize any part of the market in which it chose to participate. There is some validity to the objection -- without government participation in the market skewing the market in certain directions, we might not have seen the growth of the oligarchies which now control our economy. We'll never know, though, because the "free market" advocates will always dissemble about how much assistance the malefactors of great wealth are stealing from the rest of us and will never allow a real "free market" to exist, because such a thing would bankrupt them. What would have happened to the "free market" without an almost trillion dollar bailout 6 years ago? And who got the money? Joe Shmoe, who was losing his home? Or J.P. Moneybags, who caused Joe to lose his home? But heaven help us if we try to regulate Mr. Moneybags.

AW


Top
 Profile  
 
 Author: frankie26
PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2014 3:32 pm 
Ski, that would be one great idea for the T of SC to adopt. Can you imagine getting gas a lot cheaper for the general public!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Author: jaxonb
PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 8:15 am 
Two questions:
What is the actual price of gas in Somerset, KY, both from the city station and from the competing stations? I ask because from all I've read the stations themselves don't make that much on each gallon sold, but that could just be propaganda, since they make enough to stay open

If SC were to go this route and into competition with existing gas stations, wouldn't we eventually end up with only one gas station?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Author: timmatthes
PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 2:11 pm 
The ones that sell alcohol and tobacco products would probably survive.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Author: almilligan
PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2014 3:39 pm 
Along this same line of thinking, my grocery bill is higher than I want, perhaps the city could start a grocery store and sell at cost saving us all a lot of money. Pizzas also seem to have a lot of profit in the cost, perhaps the city could start a pizza joint and cut the price. The government might also look into delivering letters and packages to people. Wait they already do this and lose billions of dollars a year.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Author: alan wagman
PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 5:59 am 
The post office is an easy target and pointing to it is an overly simplistic argument. The post office loses money for a number of reasons (and some of them are indeed because of its own bad choices -- and, indeed, the government has never had to bail out GM or Chrysler or AIG, or any banks), but it is largely because when the services it provides compete with services provided by corporations, the corporations complain to Congress, and Congress restricts what the Post Office can do. It's as if Pepsi were restricted by legislation from marketing cola because Coke got Congress to pass a law to prevent it. Then here comes the analysis about Pepsi's inherent inefficiency. Plus, those businesses which compete with the post office for delivery services cherry pick the most profitable deliveries and turn down the difficult jobs, while the post office is mandated to accept all delivery chores -- even, and especially, the ones on which it is impossible to make a profit without charging exorbitant rates.

See, e.g.,
http://postalemployeenetwork.com/news/2 ... t-it-keep/
and
http://www.cnbc.com/id/47126893

AW


Top
 Profile  
 
 Author: almilligan
PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 10:19 am 
That's exactly the point I was making. When government gets into business all business decisions are tainted with politics. If congress would let the Postal Service run like any other private business, it could make money.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Author: alan wagman
PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 4:41 pm 
But you're still missing the point: The mission of the Post Office is to provide a public good that the "free market," left to its own devices, would not provide, because there is no profit in it. If the only measure of whether an enterprise is successful or not is whether it would make a profit without government intervention, there would be very few successful enterprises.

AW


Top
 Profile  
 
 Author: timmatthes
PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 5:20 pm 
Alan's right. If somehow the US government were to take and keep politics out of the equation and allow the post office to operate like a business, the post office would either drop the low/no profit services such as media mail and bulk mail or have to raise the cost of those, and other, services to the point the public wouldn't use them. I wouldn't miss the junk mail, but I would miss the cheap book mailing cost. The business world, and politicians, would definitely not appreciate the much higher cost of bombarding me with printed material.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Author: crow
PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2014 6:59 pm 
Getting back to gasoline, over the years this site has presented articles and discussions about unfair gas prices here in Silver City and the Mining District. At any point the people here could have decided to take action by providing competitive prices through our own (government run) stations. We, the people, have every right to band together and combat capitalist and/or corporate gouging. One would think that the "taxed enough already" people here would see the savings that would/could be applied to other services we find essential or desirable.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Author: almilligan
PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 8:28 am 
Why limit it to government gas stations, food is an even greater necessity. We should start with government run food stores.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Author: gorwest
PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2014 2:49 pm 
it sure is easy to go off into the weeds when discussing issues. The Town buys a lot of gasoline. The Town wants to save (us) money. Lots of equipment heavy businesses buy their fuel in bulk and dispense it on their own premises. There may be something to talk about in terms of the effect on the local economy of doing such a thing, but we aren't talking about that here.

We are now talking about the Town providing services and goods that the Town does not currently use, or have any interest in providing. How does that relate to bulk purchase of fuel for Town vehicles?

The infamous "slippery slope" is mostly a rhetorical fantasy, except when it comes to topics sliding off the road!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Author: almilligan
PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 8:46 am 
How much will the city save? In 8 years for each $0.01 saved per gallon, taking into the time value of money with a prevailing interest rate of 2% the city will save $7,325 per 100,000 gallons pumped per year.

So if city saves $0.10 per gallon pumping 100,000 gallons per year total savings in 8 years will be $73,250.
$0.20 saving gives $146,500
$0.30 savings gives $219,750

If the city pumps 150,000 gallons multiply above by 1.5.
For 200,000 multiply by 2 ect.

If interest rates go up to say 5% after 4 years then $0.01 saved per gallons yields a savings $6,725 per 100,000 gallons.

$0.10 saving per gallons yields a total savings in 8 years of $67,250.
$0.20 savings per gallon $134,500.
$0.30 savings per gallon $201,750.

The savings per gallon have to be net savings taking into account the cost of the gas, personnel costs, utilities, administrative costs, deprecation of buildings and equipment, and property tax lost.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Author: gorwest
PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 8:56 am 
Thanks, Al. I'm interested to see where the discussion leads from here.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Author: crow
PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 10:33 am 
According to last weeks council meeting we are currently paying $0.13 above RAC (wholesale) for Diesel and $0.39 above RAC for Regular. When the system is up and running we will be buying at RAC and adding an Administrative fee (yet to be determined) which shouldn't be too high as the system is automated. So Al, come up with a reasonable Admin cost and work those numbers.

There is an incentive built in here, each department will realize savings that will be created to that department and the less they waist the greater the credits to that department for their projects.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Author: almilligan
PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 11:18 am 
Based on 10,000 gallons pumped per year

Diesel saving will be $9,522.50 at 2% or $8,742.50 with 5% increase.

Gas savings will be $28,567.50 or $26,227.50.

Total savings depend on how much is pumped.

This assumes that the wholesale price includes the delivery fee.
The administrative fee should include deprecation of the buildings and equipment, estimated maintenance, loss of property tax, personnel costs, utilities, insurance, and bookkeeping costs. I don't think that this is going to be as small as you think. For example, if you have a $20,000 per year employee working there, and if you pump 100,000 gallons a year this adds 20 cents a gallon to your costs.

For the research I've done, retail gas stations realize about a 5 to 10 cent profit on gas after all expenses. Its hard to see how the city station is going to be so much more efficient.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Author: n2ic
PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 8:40 pm 
> For the research I've done, retail gas stations realize about a 5 to 10 cent profit on gas after all > expenses. Its hard to see how the city station is going to be so much more efficient.

Your research is based on national averages, not our Nennich-owned Silver City gas stations. At 35 cents above Lordsburg and Las Cruces prices, they are doing a lot better than 5-10 cents per gallon.

We're coming up on that time of year when the Nennich's throw their Thanksgiving bash for the working and non-working poor. They give them $6 worth of turkey and fixings in exchange for gouging them and us the rest of the year on gasoline.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Author: almilligan
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 8:36 am 
n2ic: You seem to be well informed on the gas subject, a few questions.

Are all the gas stations owned by the same company?

Is the high gas price due to high wholesale prices or high makeups by the retailers?

Who will bid on the city contract? If gas is controlled by one company how will the city get a low wholesale price?

If an out of town wholesaler will supply the city at a reasonable price, will they also supply the local retailers?

I heard a story a while ago that one station in Silver wanted to sell gas at a cut rate price but the wholesaler said they would not supply the station if he did that. Is the story true?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Author: n2ic
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 6:54 pm 
> n2ic: You seem to be well informed on the gas subject, a few questions.

Actually, I know very little, but what I do know is correct.

> Are all the gas stations owned by the same company?

All of the Alon (formerly Fina), Valero and Chevron stations are owned by W & N Enterprises (the Nennich's). The Shell, USA Gasoline and Ram are owned by others. Don't know who owns the Exxon.

FYI, W & N Enterprises also owns the Food Basket, Wrangler restaurant, BevCo and the Snappy Marts.

> Is the high gas price due to high wholesale prices or high markups by the retailers?

Don't know, but, other than the additional transportation costs, why should gas be 35 cents higher than Lordsburg or Las Cruces, and 25 cents higher than Deming ? The gas delivery trucks hold 3000 gallons. You can do the math on what it costs to transport that gas the additional 50 miles from Deming or Lordsburg. The trucks get about 5 miles per gallon on diesel. Add in the cost to pay the driver and something for wear-and-tear on the truck.

> Who will bid on the city contract? If gas is controlled by one company how will the city get a low wholesale price?

Don't know.

> If an out of town wholesaler will supply the city at a reasonable price, will they also supply the local retailers?

Don't know.

> I heard a story a while ago that one station in Silver wanted to sell gas at a cut rate price but the wholesaler said they would not supply the station if he did that. Is the story true?

Don't know, but one of the "interesting" things is the Ram gas station. On weekends, they drop their price 5 to 10 cents, but don't change the price on their sign. Shhhh...Worst kept secret in town.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 35 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
News     Columns     Food: Growing, Fixing     Features     Water     Health     Business     Education     DIY & How-tos     Classifieds     Forum     Home 
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group