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Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 6 posts ] 
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 Author: msauber
PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 2:46 pm 
Imagine taking time off of the stresses of work and taking a trip into the Gila Wilderness to cleanse the mind. To relax. To get that calm that only come from time away from the day to day noise of our busy lives. You are walking along a hillside next to a canyon taking in the beauty, calm, fragrant smells. You close your eyes for a moment to really sense where you are and that you deserve this moment and relish it. Suddenly, a shrieking thundering assault hits you from an F16 just 50 feet away as it screams up the canyon. You instinctively fall to the ground from the sudden blast of it coming by. In a split second, it is gone again, but your body's fight or flight stress hormone will remain with you for an extended period. You shake from the intensity of what you've just experienced.

That is an experience I've had, just like that somewhere else, but those training flights are proposed here in our nation's first Wilderness (and the world) thanks to visionary conservationist Aldo Leopold. Although the training flights are supposed to be a minimum of 500 feet, without question, I know the one I witnessed wasn't supposed to be that low either. As a younger adult, I drove sports cars in a very reckless manner. Why? The adrenaline rush. Even on streets and roads where others were subject to potential death from my stupidity.
There has been a petition on this site before to stand against these 10,000 flights a year over our region, but I have a new one focusing on those who have the most power to help us. That would be Senators Heinrich and Udall who are well known public land/land ethic supporters. Unfortunately they have been missing in action and just quietly "following" the issue.
Please sign my petition and pass along to friends:
http://petitions.moveon.org/sign/us-sen ... by=2022041
Thanks very much

 Author: JE1947
PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 2:09 pm 
From a crazy Vietnam veteran who saw helicopters from our division come over early in the morning: (this I know to be true) ... speakers attached to the choppers themselves (true)... some crazy fool from Headquarters Company ... playing ... blaring the theme song to "Garry Owen," which was the song the 7th Cavalry had adopted per it's once erstwhile Indiana killer (true) ... Gen. George A. Custer (true) ... and some bleary eyed GI stoned from last night's grass or booze or both (true) ... snarling like a weasel at a bear (true)... lifting his M-16 into the air (true) & cutting loose ten or so rounds(very likely true) prudently aimed ahead or behind the chopper (certainly true) (perferably ahead (very likely true and sensible) so the crew could see the tracers & know they could shove all that silliness father down the line) (if I saw this, that was the rationale the shooter gave when he realized he'd opened fire on an American chopper) ... that was some headquarters weenie's response to a gung ho commander's thoughts back at base camp (where else would such a conversation happen except safely back at base camp?).

Did I dream that or talk about it in a drunken, stoned rar rar rar at a gathering of grizzled Vietnam veterans. I know that someone told me that (very definitely) and I do believe I saw it happen once (the clouds of age part but we had guys talk about opening fire on the choppers for many days and suddenly ... the choppers stopped coming over our heads playing that shxt) ... but we had a rather stilly platoon leader and an even stupider company (West Point) commander who would've wanted to know who had fired their weapon into the air ... "hell, sir, I heard that chopper coming in over our heads so low ... it just scared the living bee jesus out of me ... I stepped out of the tent and let a magazine fly ... it was an accident ... scared the shxt out of me ... who ARE those people, sir"

"Jesus, sir, don't those idiots know we're all wired tight as a kettle drum down here?" "Don't ever let that happen again or it's an article 15 ..." if you don't hit the chopper. Dumb ass!"

You've never seen crazier people than combat Vietnam vets at 4th of July. Live rockets flying everywhere; huge boomber crackers that sound like a 105 mm round striking within 50'; strings of crackers ... 100 each ... going off like a crescendo of small arms fire in a fire fight; flares going up in the sky lighting things up so that you could read a newspaper.

This end result of this stupid, stupid military idea could be the outcome for some poor quiet, peace loving hippies, old tired but nature loving hippies, and millenials trying to hike up the Gila River in five days or less ... some kind of peace time, Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, the clients of whom begin showing up at ER or Urgent care in Silver City with tics and snaps and jumps ... "all I wanted to do was hike the Gila in peace and then i find I'm in the middle of one of Trump's free fire zones!!!!"

And it will go down, thanks to Steve Pearce, former fighter pilot, as "The Gila PTSD Shakes." :):)

 Author: JE1947
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:31 am 
I don't know where the statistic 10,000 flights i.e., sorties, came into the picture, but that means fighters from all over the area are gearing up to streak over the vast wilderness day and night. 27 almost 28 in 24 hours. As in a fire fight, there might be times when an exercise is pulled and that means a very high spike on some 25 hour periods to simulate a massive air assault against a figment of some general's ideas of a serious fight on the ground. Or,if they are stacked inside a major exercise,hundreds a day. And flying along the rivers (I know for a fact they've been flying low over the East Fork for ten years) ... I guess our fish are smarter than fish in the south where many bases are located for Army and Marines.

What about calving season? Ranchers all o.k. with that? Peak hiking season? Fishing season? Summer winter, spring or fall. 27 -28 a day. Will that upset the raising cycle for prize winning cattle?

Extreme fire season?? I don't know what kind of "flare" is used if it does not "light up" as it is fired from an aircraft. No chance of an accidential fire? From being being on the ground, when F-4s et al came in at low levels, so low, in fact, there was no warning, That is war. Low level strafing runs and bombing runs. Use of napalm ...simulated. We are, in fact, a sizeable chunk of territory that would be a battleground against guerilla fighters ... including some of us if this government ever collapsed from corruption and dry rot. Just some thoughts.

Do pilots get to strafe wolves if they're seen???

 Author: JE1947
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:38 am 
Environmental Assessment for Holloman Air
Force Base F-16 Use in White Sands Missile Range
R-5111 C/D Airspace
This is the 162 pp draft request to over fly the Gila.
I would suggest that someone who has contacted holloman ASK if there are any additional factors involved with these flights.
ARE SUPPOSED TO BE FLYING "MISSIONS" OR "SORTIES" over the Gila NF. Otherwise, are ground forces simulated on the ground when these missilons ae gong down? It is not outside the realm of possibility that Special Operations Forces at Florida, Arizona, or Albuquerque that include Navy SEALs, Special Forces,
Delta, etc., have or are intended to be inserted into this area for classified training.
I'd also suggest someone take a look at Gila NF on Google Earth, get a handle on how it looks on that site,
and then see if there are any resemblances to North Korea forests.
Typically, training is done on terrain, environmental similarities, with a place that mimics a projected target area.
This is all legal, and perhaps necessary under National Security guidance since September 11.
The DRAFT is very length and will take some time to read through it.
There may be a nugget in there somewhere.
Or, are electronic simulators going to be air dropped over the area to simulate military force movements.
That happens, too.
Just a thought.

 Author: JE1947
PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:01 pm 
Folks should note that one of the letters to the Editor in January's Desert Exposure cited similar activities that have overtaken the Olympic National Forest airspace, as "Growler Aircraft" had upped the # of sorties flown over that enormous forest. The writer mentions dropping flares.With some possible risk of fires associated with such drops. What I found interesting was that there were apparently Navy or Marine vehicles driving around in the forest below, which simulated the actual movements of some "enemy" the Navy (and possibly Marine Corps) aircraft were stalking.This certainly seems to mimic what might be planned for the flyovers of the Gila National Forest.

As far as I can remember, a "sortie" might be one plane or multiple aircraft. It is also worth noting that in aggressive air control over a battlefield, there is what is known as a "package" of various types of aircraft that could constitute a "sortie.' That might be: F-16s, which are configured to be air to ground attack aircraft; electronic warfare aircraft; aircraft that would be "Wild Weasel" configured to monitor ground to air missile launches at attack aircraft, taking out attacking ground to air missiles being launched at attacking aircraft. There might even be aircraft capable of photographing targets for bomb damage assessment. In other words, who knows how many aircraft will be in a "sortie" launched at "imaginary" targets.

Of interest to me was the mention of military vehicles driving around on the ground as if they were essentially enemy vehicles moving in the forest. Those vehicles might in fact be "targets" for the aircraft sorties. Just thought that this might be interesting to ask, if anyone gets a chance to ask these folks from Holloman whom no one has apparently been able to question. This goes to the thought that Special Operations Forces might have been inserted into the Gila National forest prior to these aircraft sorties.

All speculation, of course. But one often works with the other ... all sides of the Armed Forces need training experience that is as realistic as possible.

Last thought: what do the Gila National Forest and Olympic National Forest have in common with North Korea? With all the vast air spaces available for such activities in the West, why now? I haven't looked at Google Earth in a while, but recall doing so years ago. I was surprised how much forest there was in Korea now compared to when I was in Korea in 1965-1966. I was educated within the last year that the forests of South & North Korea had been denuded by the Japanese during WW II. With the Japanese gone, Korea began to see its forests rejuvenated.

I hope these aircraft sorties are NOT part of war preparations against North Korea.

 Author: timothius
PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:42 am 
Concerning your last paragraph. You’ll probably remember that the Korean Peninsula has very rugged mountains, very similar to the Gila. That makes for more realistic training. I personally enjoy using the Gila for my sanity and spiritual needs, I don’t want too share it with loud aircraft. I mean really loud! When they fly and are come very fast in your direction, one will probably not hear it until it passes. I must tell you. It will scare the crap out of you! We have to fight it.

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